Podcast #13: Commercial Lending and Real Estate
For this podcast about commercial lending I sat down with Angie Hoffman at U.S. Bank. During the podcast we discussed investing in real estate, commercial lending, and how commerceial mortgages can help investors. If you want to learn more about commercial loans this is a great pdocast for you.
I hope you enjoy the podcast and find it informative. Please consider sharing with those who also may benefit.
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About the author: The above article “Podcast #12: Hard Money Lending” was provided by Luxury Real Estate Specialist Paul Sian. Paul can be reached at paul@CinciNKYRealEstate.com or by phone at 513-560-8002. If you’re thinking of selling or buying your investment or commercial business property I would love to share my marketing knowledge and expertise to help you. Contact me today!
I work in the following Greater Cincinnati, OH and Northern KY areas: Alexandria, Amberly, Amelia, Anderson Township, Cincinnati, Batavia, Blue Ash, Covington, Edgewood, Florence, Fort Mitchell, Fort Thomas, Hebron, Hyde Park, Indian Hill, Kenwood, Madeira, Mariemont, Milford, Montgomery, Mt. Washington, Newport, Newtown, Norwood, Taylor Mill, Terrace Park, Union Township, and Villa Hills.
Commercial Lending Podcast
Paul Sian: Hello everybody. This is Paul Sian, Realtor with United Real Estate Home Connections, licensed in the State of Ohio and Kentucky. With me today is Angie Hoffman with US Bank. Angie how are you today?
Angie Hoffman: I'm doing great Paul. How are you?
Paul Sian: Great. Thank you for being on my podcast. We're gonna start off. Today's topic is ‘Commercial Lending’. Angie is a commercial lender with US Bank, as I mentioned. Angie, why don't you tell us a little bit by your background. What you do with the US bank, and how did you get started in that field?
Angie Hoffman: Sure. So, I am a Cincinnati resident, have been my entire life. Was previously with a company called the ‘Conner group’, which is located out of Dayton, Ohio. They're a private investment real estate firm. I was with him for about five plus years, just learned a ton of information, really loved the financing portion of their group. So, that turned me to the banking portion, which I ended up going with US Bank just because of the knowledge and the breadth of what they can do as well. Just the culture within US Bank has been phenomenal. I've actually been with us Bank now for five years; in the last three years I've been within the commercial real estate side as well as the business banking side.
Paul Sian: Okay. Your primary focus is commercial loans.
Angie Hoffman: Correct. Yes, both investment real estate as well as owner-occupied and small to medium businesses.
Paul Sian: Okay. The investment side, I represent a lot of buyers of multifamily. I know with the form below we do, the conventional space generally, and then when you're in the five units and above. You go into the commercial space, which is your space. I have also heard it being covered with mixed-use buildings, industrial properties, is there something else that commercial loans would cover?
Angie Hoffman: Correct. I mean it can really be quite an array of properties, office is one that we see pretty often, and can tend to be either hot in certain areas, whether it's office Class B or Office Class A. Retail strip centers, we'll look at Triple Net properties, and absolute not properties. We are very popular, if you're looking at diversifying a multi-family portfolio and adding in some triple net properties. We also do, obviously owner-occupied properties too. When you have that small business or medium business owner who wants to own their own real estate. We do that as well, and that's again part of what my position entails, and then we will also look at portfolios will do single-family homes.
I'm actually working with somebody now who has a portfolio of several single-family homes, that were looking to kind of restructure and refinance for him. We can even utilize current equity and properties to purchase additional properties to help you grow your portfolio. We do try to have a full understanding of your portfolio or a full understanding of what your strategy is. How partner with you, as you continue to grow that portfolio short- and long-term goals.
Paul Sian: For our listeners, who don’t know. What Triple Net means, do you mind explaining that.
Angie Hoffman: Sure. So, Triple Net is gonna tend to be your properties that have the tenant itself is paying the taxes, the insurance, you may have some pretty minimal depending upon the property, responsibilities that are usually restricted to the exterior of the building. It may be like a roof or a parking lot. Type of maintenance but generally speaking the great thing about the triple net is that for some clients, it's a property that you can basically own, and you have to do pretty much nothing with. So, you're gaining that income without having to do a very minimal type of responsibility or maintenance.
The downfall of that is that typically they're gonna be somebody, who is gonna be a longer-term lease, which is great. However, you still have the issue that it's a bigger square footage generally. So, five, ten, twenty thousand plus square feet. If you lose a tenant obviously, that can be very impactful. It just depends upon your, again your focus of your portfolio, and if you want to add in that. But it can be great opportunity, but tends to again be a little bit less of a return. Because of the minimal responsibilities.
Paul Sian: Going back to single family. That is similar, I am using the same term your bank use but to ‘wrap mortgage’. Is that what you use for single families?
Angie Hoffman: We do have the ability, from the perspective of what you say wrap mortgage. We're typically calling that like an umbrella, if you're grouping all, let's call it, if there's ten single family homes. You're grouping this all into one, it lies together. We have the ability to do that depending again on the structure that the client is looking for.
We also have the ability to separate out those facilities, and do a simultaneous closing for each one of them to have them separated out from each other. Obviously, there's some contingencies but that the properties itself have to be able to cash flow by themselves, things along those lines that we would underwrite to. But we do have ability to look at it from both perspectives.
Paul Sian: Okay. The biggest advantage of that if someone has reached the maximum ten convention mortgage loanlimit. They can step into your space there and you could cover them, and they can either restart that or. With something like that, let's say somebody does get ten properties, and are they able to finance in additional properties into that same loan or is that has to re-finance each time?
Angie Hoffman: No. We would be able to add in. I mean, if you're asking like if they want to refinance these properties, and they're also looking to maybe either use some of the equity in them or they're also buying at the same time. We can do all of that together, so that's not an issue at all.
Paul Sian: Let’s say to somebody new coming to investment. What is the typical down payment on commercial loans? That are looking to buy in the mixed-use space or multifamily space?
Angie Hoffman: So, generally speaking. We'll go up to 80% loan-to-value. The biggest factor within that is gonna be how much the capability of the property to hold that debt. We're gonna have, we have a pretty. I don't want to say complex but we do have multiple factors that go within our cash flow, and net operating, income calculation, that we're gonna want to see. It balanced to a certain point for it to be able to hold the debt at an 80% loan to value. Again, we tend to partner with our clients. I have several clients who will send me properties on a daily basis, that they're interested in. We will let them know what the debt capacity would be on that property.
Paul Sian: Okay. Income from the rents per sale, let's say, something's got a ten-unit building. Then you're looking at the rents that are coming in. You're also considering the buyers income level, income to debt ratio, all that as well.
Angie Hoffman: Yes. When I talk about the capacity, the debt for the property is being the one of the first things we look at is. In order to get to that 80% LTV, if you're looking at the actual depth, they're wanting the property to take on. Compared to other rent they're taking in and the expenses, as well as some vacancy factors, things like that. That's what we're looking at to have a certain ratio, then on top of that. When we get to the next step would be look at the client globally, and their personal debt to income, and that factor too.
Paul Sian: Looking at that commercial mortgages, can buyer use the mortgage to upgrade property, to build in some equity in the property. Does the building of the equity get taken into account, and do you have a loan that allows them to do that?
Angie Hoffman: That question is kind of twofold. If you have a property, let's say, it's multiple unit, and you're continuing to kind of do some improvements and renovations. If the property has the equity, we can look at small lines of credit to help with that renovation cost. Then once everything's complete to be able to wrap that together. If you're looking at a property that's completely distressed, and doesn't have any type of income. Then that's gonna be something that generally we're gonna have a harder time with. Because it's a speculative type of scenario, and we want to typically see the actual income.
Paul Sian: How about converting something, I am interested in buying warehouse, either in retail space or multifamily. Do you offer products for that, or is that a similar situation when you're looking at the risk as being a little high?
Angie Hoffman: Yes. So, that is gonna be a similar situation. Once the actual project would be completed again from a speculative standpoint, it just it becomes a little bit more difficult from a risk perspective. However, we've been in scenarios where we've worked with clients and partnered clients, people we know who work in that space more than we do. We can look to, guide them to what we would look at if we wanted to refinance that once it was completed, and there were leases in place.
Paul Sian: Okay. So, that is one of the benefits working with a big bank like US bank, is you can reach across departments there, and tap other resources within your organization.
Angie Hoffman: Even if it's within the organization, we have other resources whether it's our private wealth or wealth group, have some capabilities that are different than what we have as well as from a CUI or network basis. It may be somebody just within my network that I know works within that space to introduce that way and hopefully can get that client taken care of.
Paul Sian: Are you able to comment on the underwriting process of commercial loans compared to residential. Is there a big difference in that process?
Angie Hoffman: So, yes and no. I know we touch on it already a little bit. One of the biggest differences is obviously we're gonna look at the actual collateral in a very different way, especially on the investment real estate side. When you're looking at investment real estate, the factors that the net operating income as well as the cash flow of the property become factors. Whereas, when you're buying a home, obviously it's a lot more about the loan to value of the property. However on the other side of that, if we are looking at a property that's gonna be owner occupied by a small to medium business. It becomes a lot more about the loan-to-value as well. So, it can depend upon the situation.
Paul Sian: Okay. How important is the person's experience when they come to loan, get a loan for you. If it's a new first-time investor looking at multi families versus somebody who's already got five to ten units and then either self-managing or running it for a couple years.
Angie Hoffman: I mean, generally speaking, if you have somebody brand new, one of the biggest things is if you're not familiar in the scope. You don't have experience, you gonna be partnering potentially with a property management company or somebody else who is maybe a partnership within the LLC or the property that you're buying that has the experience. Just being able to show you may not have previous experience in this but you are partnering with a property management company that has historical success in these properties. You're partnering with somebody, for instance, who has historical success in the properties.
Paul Sian: So, yeah boils down to your team then. What you’re bringing to the team. What kind of document requirements are there to start a commercial loan process with US bank?
Angie Hoffman: Generally speaking, in every situation is different, every request is different, client is different. But it's typically going to be two to three years of taxes, personal and business, personal financial statements pretty standard as well. If it's a purchase, we're gonna want to see a purchase agreement or understand the purchase agreement as well. As you're gonna want to have financials whether it's profit loss or the rent rolls preferably a Schedule E or 8852 from the client. Showing what the historical trends of that property of have been. That's where we really try and partner with our clients of understanding their portfolios, understanding what purchase they're trying to make. So, that, does it fit, and is there anything we see because we see them on a very regular basis that. Maybe we need to discuss or let the client know that we are suggesting maybe prying a little bit more information.
Paul Sian: How important is ones credit score when they come to apply for loan with you?
Angie Hoffman: It is a factor, I mean. In any type of just like the traditional mortgage, it is gonna be a factor. But there are so many different factors that, it's only one of many.
Paul Sian: One of the important things when it comes to purchasing real estate is I always tell the buyers that have a pre-approval letter ready. Is there something similar in the commercial loans place? A pre-approval letter, pre-qualification letter. Just something that says, somebody sat down with you, they started the initial process. They've got access to certain amount that they can borrow to purchase this property. Do you have something like that?
Angie Hoffman: We do. So, on the commercial side it's gonna be called a letter of interest, and it basically lays out that we are working with a client. We have a price range or up to a price range that we're looking for with the client, and depending upon the collateral. We are looking to work with him on the financing, again depending upon what the collateral is, and then we also have once we've actually maybe gone through a more official process of underwriting and submitted an actual financial package. We do have, depending again on what the financing contingency is for that client.
We do have a letter of commitment, which lays out that there is an approval but it goes through all of the conditions as well like your appraisal certain things like that, that we're gonna have to clear.
Paul Sian: Okay. How long does that process take? If you are writing an offer today for a client, and then usually you have to write in how many days we're gonna close in. 30 days, 40 to 45 days. I know conventional, it's usually a little quicker, a little easier. So, we can do it in 30 days or so. I mean, what would you recommend for a commercial loan?
Angie Hoffman: I think 45 days is very practical. One of the biggest things that I always talk about with my clients is that 45 days really is incumbent of me having a full financial package, meaning those two years of tax returns. The financials, I spoke about from the client that you're purchasing, and or if you're refinancing. To me, having that full financial package is really the key and then, again from there it's gonna be some of the factors of the appraisal as well as the title work that would go along with it. But generally speaking, 45 days to close is pretty.
Paul Sian: Reasonable.
Angie Hoffman: Yes.
Paul Sian: You mentioned the documents that was my blog article documents for the conventional mortgage process. You mentioned W2s, 1040, tax returns, that is pretty similar the document requirements for commercial loans that it is for residential space?
Angie Hoffman: Yes. It's very similar. With the PFS is gonna be one of the biggest as well as the two years of tax returns. Potentially three years depending upon, again the request size. Like you said, I mean, if they're a W2 income type of employee, then we may need additional pay stubs. like I said, for any client, it could be very different depending again on what their history is. If they're a business owner, then we may mean some more details but generally speaking, again it would be two to three years of personal business has returns, personal financial statement, and potentially obviously purchase agreement or additional documentation from that side.
Paul Sian: Okay. When it comes to partnership, people coming together, those documents from everybody. Correct?
Angie Hoffman: Correct. So, depending on what the ownership structure is. Generally, if somebody's over 20% ownership within the property, then we're going to need that financial information from them as well.
Paul Sian: Okay. I know with the conventional space. Lending into an LLC is generally impossible. Most lenders will not allow conventional borrowers to use an LLC. How does that work on the commercial side?
Angie Hoffman: The vast majority of the lending that I do is going to be through an LLC in a holding company. The clients are still a personal guarantor but the lending itself in the title is all within the LLC.
Paul Sian: Is it a requirement in LLC or is it an option for the buyer?
Angie Hoffman: It's an option. I mean, one that again depending from an attorney’s perspective, if you're talking about liability. It may be a best-case scenario to have an LLC with that property. But we always reference stuff talk to your attorney about what makes sense for you.
Paul Sian: How much, do you have any minimum loan requirements and your maximum loan requirement?
Angie Hoffman: Up to ten million on the investment real estate side, and then once it's beyond that, we do have a commercial group that we would work with a real estate group as well as our middle marker group that would potentially be involved. As far as minimum typically, again if it's under 2,50,000. It's still something that we would do. It just, we pull in a different partner to work with us on that too, because it kind of goes into a little bit different of a space.
Paul Sian: Is there, under 250,000$ or is there a lower minimum. I know some conventional lenders won't touch anything fifty thousand and under.
Angie Hoffman: It's pretty common. Yes, under fifty thousand is gonna be a little bit more difficult.
Paul Sian: 50,000 to 2,50,000, and above that.
Angie Hoffman: But keep in mind too. I mean, if you have properties itself. It may be again, you see this more with the single-family home portfolios. You may have multiple properties that are under fifty thousand. But we're looking at the entirety of the portfolio, makes a little bit different of a scenario. I would caution that anything that somebody is looking at from the perspective of either total lending amount or even individual property. We're happy to take a look at it, have an understanding of what you're looking to do, and if for some reason it's not something that is in our world necessarily. Again, from an internal and external standpoint. We typically have somebody who I can contact.
Paul Sian: Discussing interest rates from general perspective, everybody’s situation is different and unique. But in terms of paying more, having a lower LTV, 60% LTV rather than 80%. People get themselves a better interest rate or is it generally, can we same and more just depending on credit and history.
Angie Hoffman: So, from an interest rate standpoint, the commercial side is a little bit different. Then maybe the mortgage or lines of credit side, then you then you generally see. Ours is based off of what banks cost the funds are, and then there is a spread that is on top of that. That's where you get the percent from. Right now, cost of funds are pretty minimal. So, interest rates are extremely competitive. But from that perspective, it doesn't necessarily factor in the actual loan it saw or the guarantor itself or the property itself.
Paul Sian: So, there's some risk-based consideration towards interest rates. I guess a little higher risk project is that something you would price a little higher in the interest rate or generally that it's not considered as much?
Angie Hoffman: No. That's not considered as much, generally.
Paul Sian: Okay. Great. That's all the questions I have for you today Angie. Did you have any final thoughts to share with the group?
Angie Hoffman: Sure. One thing I would say is if anybody has any questions about property specific, cash flow, if this property may fit into their portfolio or something that we would look to land up to 80%.I'm happy to partner with anybody on that side as well, and be resource for them. On top of that, I did want to mention that obviously US Bank is across the country. That gives us the ability even, if I'm your contact in Cincinnati to lend out-of-state borrowers.
I've worked with quite a few clients obviously from California that are buying in Cincinnati as well Chicago. So, those are people that I've worked with quite frequently as well.
Paul Sian: That is perfect. I’ve got a number of out of state clients to. That is one of the biggest challenges that I’ve faced with some local lenders is that they don’t lend to out of state. That’s a great ability to have.
Angie Hoffman: So, the key with in that too is just as I want to mention too. I mean, anytime that scenario comes up. We are happy to discuss it. One of the biggest factors with out-of-state lenders is that we do look for them to be within US bank footprint. So, we are very much on the west coast and Portland, all of those areas. If they're somewhere you're not familiar, if we're within that area, please reach out. Let me know, and I'm happy to take a look.
Paul Sian: Great. Thank you again. I will leave your contact information on my blog post once it gets published live. Thanks again for being on the podcast.
Angie Hoffman: Thanks for having me.